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Discussion Starter #1
Hi y’all- i currently have a sc project s1 slip on on my cb, just ordered the titanium headers.

i will be running the bike with the dB killer in- is a power commander necessary?

also, i ordered an aftermarket air filter (standard, not race). I’m wondering if this will change the answer to my first question. If i don’t need a power commander then i won’t buy one- i just want to prevent unnecessary wear on the engine.
Thanks
 

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If the titanium headers you speak of lack the cat converter... then yes it would be highly recommended that you get a PC and a custom map.

You could also check out a Rapid Bike module. It's similar to a Power Commander, but it constantly adjusts itself. It's about $200 USD more expensive, but no custom map is necessary; any changes you make to the exhaust system now and in the future will be automatically accounted for... so adding or removing stuff later on will "just work" as well.

 

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Discussion Starter #3
If the titanium headers you speak of lack the cat converter... then yes it would be highly recommended that you get a PC and a custom map.

You could also check out a Rapid Bike module. It's similar to a Power Commander, but it constantly adjusts itself. It's about $200 USD more expensive, but no custom map is necessary; any changes you make to the exhaust system now and in the future will be automatically accounted for... so adding or removing stuff later on will "just work" as well.
Awesome thank you for the info and recommendation.
Yeah I’m pretty sure they’re straight headers, no cat whatsoever. They do allow however for the stock o2 sensor to plug right in (unless that’s what you’re referring to when you say cat converter? Not positive myself)
 

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"Cat converter" is just slang/shorthand for catalytic converter. It's a means to control emissions and is typically illegal to remove on road vehicles (no worries on track/race bikes), but YMMV based on local enforcement, etc. I've done it on bikes in the past with no issues, but you never know!

The O2 sensors are different from the catalytic converter. They basically detect the oxygen levels which helps maintain a proper air/fuel ratio... sounds like you don't need that explained though. 😁
 

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Another option would be to have the stock ECU flashed. Then no piggy back module, such as Power Commander, etc, is necessary. I generally don't like going down that path as if I ever happen to sell the bike, everything can be removed and stock parts can be reinstalled without any extra tuning or de-tuning necessary. I like knowing that I can return the bike to stock at any time. Whether or not that's likely is another story... but that's me.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Another option would be to have the stock ECU flashed. Then no piggy back module, such as Power Commander, etc, is necessary. I generally don't like going down that path as if I ever happen to sell the bike, everything can be removed and stock parts can be reinstalled without any extra tuning or de-tuning necessary. I like knowing that I can return the bike to stock at any time. Whether or not that's likely is another story... but that's me.
I think i share the same line of thinking, is flashing the ecu a much more affordable option though?
Not too worried about the legality portion of removing the cat, should be alright
 

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I think i share the same line of thinking, is flashing the ecu a much more affordable option though?
Not too worried about the legality portion of removing the cat, should be alright
You'll get the best bang for your buck and one that will remove all restrictions if you can find someone knowledgeable with a legit ECU flash.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
You'll get the best bang for your buck and one that will remove all restrictions if you can find someone knowledgeable with a legit ECU flash.
Then the idea would be that the bike will auto adjust air/fuel ratios itself? Now that it no longer thinks it’s got the cat on?
 

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Then the idea would be that the bike will auto adjust air/fuel ratios itself? Now that it no longer thinks it’s got the cat on?
Kind of. You have the right idea. In a nutshell: the stock ECU will use the signal from the O2 sensors to allow adjustment of fuel delivery within a certain range to keep the air/fuel ratio balanced.

If the changes are so extreme that they fall outside those factory limits, the piggy back module or custom tune will alter that range to accommodate the changes.

It's just a matter of altering the margin of error, in a sense, so it can allow more fuel to be delivered than it was otherwise designed for, since you will be allowing way more air travel with the restrictive cat converter removed.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Kind of. You have the right idea. In a nutshell: the stock ECU will use the signal from the O2 sensors to allow adjustment of fuel delivery within a certain range to keep the air/fuel ratio balanced.

If the changes are so extreme that they fall outside those factory limits, the piggy back module or custom tune will alter that range to accommodate the changes.

It's just a matter of altering the margin of error, in a sense, so it can allow more fuel to be delivered than it was otherwise designed for, since you will be allowing way more air travel with the restrictive cat converter removed.
awesome- this answers my question thank you

and thanks for the rec @Bevo but i dont have instagram (new terms of service finally did me in)

looks like i will likely go the power commander route- i checked for the self regulating one you mentioned to no avail- thanks though, its ok though- gives me the option to grind out the db killer's tack welds in the future if i feel inclined, thanks all!
 

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Powercommander or Rapidbikes can not enhance performance at all.
All they can do is manage on top of existing fuel and ignition status but can not manage the throttle at all. These fly-by-wire bikes are 100% controlled and managed by the ECU.
All the upper rpm restrictions will remain in place.
The only way to enhance the performance of the bike is by way of an ECU reflash.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Powercommander or Rapidbikes can not enhance performance at all.
All they can do is manage on top of existing fuel and ignition status but can not manage the throttle at all. These fly-by-wire bikes are 100% controlled and managed by the ECU.
All the upper rpm restrictions will remain in place.
The only way to enhance the performance of the bike is by way of an ECU reflash.
I’m simply trying to make sure the air/fuel ratios are good to avoid harming the engine, I’m not necessarily looking for more power. Still worth it to go with the power commander for this purpose, in your opinion obviously
 

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I’m simply trying to make sure the air/fuel ratios are good to avoid harming the engine, I’m not necessarily looking for more power. Still worth it to go with the power commander for this purpose, in your opinion obviously
or Rapid Bike!
i have it, with full exhaust+db killer.
no idea how the air/fuel ration on my bike but it's smooth and good pick up at 5krpm.
no ecu flasher where i live :(
 

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Well, to be brutally honest while the bikes come lean from the factory and run lean and may occasionally ping and detonate from poor quality gas, they will never be damaged by running this way - Honda would never release and warranty them for sale if they ran this risk.

And the reality is that with fly-by-wire bikes the fuel correction offered by a Powercommander or Rapisbikes is still not the same as it was in the days of analog throttle bikes, as the actual throttle actuation is controlled by the ECU exclusively.

So while the PC5 or RB may see a lean state and add fuel, the throttle blades can never be opened in sympathy with this added fuel as the ECU by way of fixed ETV (electronic throttle valve) tables will only deliver the throttle opening indicated int he table. No matter what you do with your wrist.

If you turn on the bikes key and twist the throttle grip you will hear a ZZZzzZZZzZZZzz... then if you max out the throttle twists you'll here a ZZZzzzZZttttZzzzzTTTTzTTTT buzzing noise.

That is the Throttle body motor responding to your wrist action.and opening the butterflies. That is the only time that motor will ever do what you tell it to - while th ebike is runnign that motor will only do what the ECU tells it to do, no matter what you do with your wrist.

Same with the Powercomander, all it can do is trick the injectors to squirt more fuel, but the throttle blades will never be in the right place to properly use the fuel so the it will always be chasing its tail.

This is an example of the ETV tables in a stock SC80 CB1000R Seee A, B & C
A is your Throttle position, B is the Throttle blade, C is RPM.
So you can see when you are 100% open throttle at 11,000rpm, your Throttle blades are only open 80%.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Well, to be brutally honest while the bikes come lean from the factory and run lean and may occasionally ping and detonate from poor quality gas, they will never be damaged by running this way - Honda would never release and warranty them for sale if they ran this risk.

And the reality is that with fly-by-wire bikes the fuel correction offered by a Powercommander or Rapisbikes is still not the same as it was in the days of analog throttle bikes, as the actual throttle actuation is controlled by the ECU exclusively.

So while the PC5 or RB may see a lean state and add fuel, the throttle blades can never be opened in sympathy with this added fuel as the ECU by way of fixed ETV (electronic throttle valve) tables will only deliver the throttle opening indicated int he table. No matter what you do with your wrist.

If you turn on the bikes key and twist the throttle grip you will hear a ZZZzzZZZzZZZzz... then if you max out the throttle twists you'll here a ZZZzzzZZttttZzzzzTTTTzTTTT buzzing noise.

That is the Throttle body motor responding to your wrist action.and opening the butterflies. That is the only time that motor will ever do what you tell it to - while th ebike is runnign that motor will only do what the ECU tells it to do, no matter what you do with your wrist.

Same with the Powercomander, all it can do is trick the injectors to squirt more fuel, but the throttle blades will never be in the right place to properly use the fuel so the it will always be chasing its tail.

This is an example of the ETV tables in a stock SC80 CB1000R Seee A, B & C
A is your Throttle position, B is the Throttle blade, C is RPM.
So you can see when you are 100% open throttle at 11,000rpm, your Throttle blades are only open 80%.
Wow, you have some great info thank you!

sounds like i need to go the ecu flash route

I’ll look into that, if you have any recommendations feel free to send them! Thanks again
 

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2019 CB1000R
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Well, to be brutally honest while the bikes come lean from the factory and run lean and may occasionally ping and detonate from poor quality gas, they will never be damaged by running this way - Honda would never release and warranty them for sale if they ran this risk.

And the reality is that with fly-by-wire bikes the fuel correction offered by a Powercommander or Rapisbikes is still not the same as it was in the days of analog throttle bikes, as the actual throttle actuation is controlled by the ECU exclusively.

So while the PC5 or RB may see a lean state and add fuel, the throttle blades can never be opened in sympathy with this added fuel as the ECU by way of fixed ETV (electronic throttle valve) tables will only deliver the throttle opening indicated int he table. No matter what you do with your wrist.

If you turn on the bikes key and twist the throttle grip you will hear a ZZZzzZZZzZZZzz... then if you max out the throttle twists you'll here a ZZZzzzZZttttZzzzzTTTTzTTTT buzzing noise.

That is the Throttle body motor responding to your wrist action.and opening the butterflies. That is the only time that motor will ever do what you tell it to - while th ebike is runnign that motor will only do what the ECU tells it to do, no matter what you do with your wrist.

Same with the Powercomander, all it can do is trick the injectors to squirt more fuel, but the throttle blades will never be in the right place to properly use the fuel so the it will always be chasing its tail.

This is an example of the ETV tables in a stock SC80 CB1000R Seee A, B & C
A is your Throttle position, B is the Throttle blade, C is RPM.
So you can see when you are 100% open throttle at 11,000rpm, your Throttle blades are only open 80%.
This is the best I've ever had it explained. Even just to solely regard the ECU's independent modulation of the throttle by wire... never actually even thought to consider that aspect in comparison to a throttle by cable. 🤔
 
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